Spike Lee and Denzel Washington: "We know the value of fans. Do we know the value of talent? That's the big challenge today."

Denzel Washington appears on screen with a shaved head and a black T-shirt. He looks good. He's 70, he recalls. Spike Lee is 68 and emerges at his side, peeking out of a corner of the frame, dressed as Spike Lee: Knicks cap, white glasses, a quizzical expression. They refer to each other as "my brother," giggle at this and that, get very happy when someone mentions Italy, and sometimes seem to get lost in their own private jokes. But they are, at all times, good and gentlemanly conversationalists. A dozen journalists from Latin America, Asia, and Europe share the Zoom meeting with them, a small press conference organized for Denzel Washington and Spike Lee to present From Heaven to Hell (now in theaters and on Apple TV), their fifth film together and the one that earned the actor the Palme d'Or at the last Cannes Film Festival .

What can we say about From Heaven to Hell ? First, it's a reinterpretation of Akira Kurosawa's The Hell That Happened (1963). "A reinterpretation, not a remake , " Lee clarifies. Denzel Washington , playing the most famous producer in the pop industry, "the best ear in the world," is in a brief moment of professional crisis. He doesn't know whether to sell his company and start over from scratch, whether to give up everything, or double down. He has a teenage son who plays basketball.

When he leaves his training, the boy is kidnapped. The father's response, at first, is simple. "You want a ransom? Fine, go ahead, I have the money." The kidnapping later turns out to be a botched scheme that tests the character's morality and leads to three unforgettable scenes: a trip through the Puerto Rican neighborhoods of the Bronx ( Rosie Perez makes a cameo that will move longtime Spike Lee fans) and a couple of confrontations between Washington and the kidnapper, played by rapper A$AP Rocky .

"A$AP Rocky was in Monster , a movie my wife [Tonya Lewis Lee] produced. So I knew he was a real actor, not just a poser. Lots of musicians have made movies. A$AP Rocky is a different story. I had a date with him without telling him I was auditioning. He read a couple of scenes and it was so clear. He was the perfect guy, no doubt ," Lee explains.

Ultimately, the conflict between Washington's character and A$AP Rocky's goes beyond a few million dollars. The villain, in addition to being a kidnapper, is a fan, an aspiring star, and a rapper with some potential . Deep down, A$AP Rocky doesn't just want Denzel Washington's money; he also wants his attention and his opportunity, and he argues that kidnapping a kid is a good way to get them. "Fame is the only currency," the characters in From Heaven to Hell repeat.

"The world we live in tends toward that: how many followers you have, how much popularity, how are you going to monetize that mass," Washington explains. And Lee takes over: "I know we're going to sound a bit grumpy, a bit moralistic, but there are some questions implicit in that 'fame is the only currency' thing. What is the value of talent? How much are we willing to risk for it? We know what followers are worth. Do we know what talent is worth? That's the great challenge facing the entertainment industry today. If we look back, it was clear that talent was the measure of fame. Well, I don't think it was always that way; there were shortcuts, things that happened behind the scenes."

The actor and director take turns arguing: "It wasn't always the most talented actors who succeeded. But I think the studios did know how to create stars ," says Washington. "They knew how to take someone and turn them into something else, a star. I guess before, everything was very centralized. You fell into the hands of someone like Louis B. Mayer and that was it. Now, many more people have a window to fame, an attempt ," the actor continues. "People make their own way now; they have tools to get attention," the director replies. Before, you had to be in New York or Los Angeles. Now, anyone has a chance if they do it right on Instagram. Three or four people appear in the film whom I discovered on Instagram. Ayana Lee, the singer who appears at the end, or Jensen McRae, who is the girl you audition for in the lobby , for example."

"Did you find her on Instagram?" Washington asks. "Yes."

Next question: What does this film say about our world? About the world of Black Americans? About Donald Trump's America? Nearly all of the police officers in From Heaven to Hell are Black, but their relationship with the citizens they are charged with defending is still based on mutual distrust. "It's not that I wanted to give the film an African-American flavor," Lee replies. "That's who I am, and that's what necessarily comes out in my films. It's in the artwork that appears in the apartment. Have you noticed? There are Basquiat paintings. And the same thing happens with the music the characters listen to, with how they are. It's not a question of me deciding to give things a racial spin and make a black version of something . I have a lot of respect for the great Akira Kurosawa, but I allow myself to remember that his 1963 film was an adaptation of a novel called King's Ransom by Evan Hunter. A novel written in the United States. So the story has made a round trip from the United States to Japan and back again to the United States."

"What does this film say about the world?" he continues. "I don't know. What does it say to you? You don't make films with the intention of saying something specific; that's up to the audience . I've never wanted to decide what people should take away from a film of mine. I also don't think America is one thing that fits into a film. 250 million people live here, and everyone has their own experience. The important thing about the film is the moral conflict."

And what about working together for the first time since...? Since Inside Man (2006) "I don't really think about it. We've definitely gotten older. Our knees hurt ," says Washington. Lee: "I can't even say how long it's been since we worked together because our relationship isn't based on the time we spend working together." Washington: "Our kids work together." Lee: "Our kids, our wives, our families spend time together. And it's like that all the time. It's not like I have the days until I get out of jail and go back to work with Denzel on a calendar... So I can't say what we were like before and what we are like now."

Washington takes it a bit seriously: "I will say one thing. From the age of 65, I began to realize that my time was going to run out at some point and that I had to choose who I wanted to work with. And it was clear. With Spike, with Fernando Meirelles, with Ryan Coogler, with Antoine Fuqua, with Steve McQueen... I just needed to find the project. Then this script came to me. I read the script before Spike. I read it and immediately thought: I have to call my boyfriend . And here we are."

Lee: "Denzel called me, he said, 'I'm sending you a script, the story is set in New York,' and he hung up on me, and I was like, 'Go for it.' Then I saw that Kurosawa had made a movie out of it. Kurosawa? Let's go! " Washington: "It's a beautiful thing. To be here together, to be excited about a movie. It's healing for me because I was already in a place where things didn't excite me that much." Lee: "We're the Dynamic Duo, we're Batman and Robin. That's why we work together." Washington: "I have to take care of Spike. His memory is slipping a little, he needs someone to help him... That's my job."

Someone invites Batman and Robin to choose three songs, since the film is about the music industry. Robin immediately names three titles: Love Supreme by John Coltrane; Individuals by Stevie Wonder; Porgy and Bess by Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald. Batman hesitates a bit longer: I Love You Dawn by Bill Withers; Divine Order by Kem; and "something by Pharaoh Sanders." It's clear who Robin is and who Batman is, right?